UDFA Availability

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UDFA Availability

Post  Dan U on Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:35 pm

All players that fail to get drafted by June 24th @8am (1 week after the end of the last time slot) will be available at that time to be signed in the  normal free agent method.  This gives players a week to make up missed draft slot.  Any attempt to sign a UDFA before that is invalid.

-The Commish
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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:57 pm

Alright this is my issue with this Dan.

#1 What happened to the democracy and majority vote you are always talking about that needs to happen? Seems a bit like a dictatorship here.

#2 Giving a chance for the people that missed picks to catch up and make selections? Are you kidding me? How about we give them an extra slot or two when they miss during the draft as well? Hell let's just throw out the rule of specific draft time limits and just go in snake order. They know the rules. Draft on time, if not the next person is up. If you don't draft at all then everyone has a shot on the open market. I am pretty sure FA can be signed in the NFL right away. If they cannot and I am misinformed then so be it, we should do the same thing and install the 1 week rule, but that is not the rule right now.

#3 Since you are always a stickler about the rules and following them to a tee and making rulings strictly with the explanation that if you are always firm then there is never the argument that you bent it "that one time." I can understand that and as I am fairly certain I was on the losing end of that ruling with a Stevan Jackson bid and I took it because I appreciated your position. In this case the rule clearly states: 

Now you are saying this:

Now if I am not mistaken there needs to be a majority vote to change this rule like all other rules. Even if this rule makes sense, like the rule where waiver pick ups are only $1 for 1 year it still needed to be discussed and voted upon. This didn't happen and that is what I have an issue with. In your argument of establishing a baseline and continuing that letter of the law policy, what precident does this set? That I am Almighty Dan and I can do and change things as I see ft. I addressed this and I said "Well it isn't in the rules so I am pretty sure I can bid. Why exactly couldn't I bid?" You replied and I quote:

Not exactly mature or democratic. I then said "that's not good enough." Meaning if it is in the rules that we can, then how can you stop me? You replied:


Wow really? Very mature.

When all is said and done it isn't going to matter to me that much about waiting because the chance of getting a guy that will be a long term contributor as an UDFA is slim, but that isn't the point. The point is if you start this type of arbitrary governing, where does it stop? If you threaten to collude because someone challenges you using your own logic how far can it go? In short: This.Is.Bullshit.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Dan U on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:03 pm

#1: It's MINE AND TOM'S LEAGUE! 

...all i need to say
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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:09 pm

Well if that's how it is going to be run after I win a few championships and my league with all my high school friends is drafted this summer then I am out. Way to take a fun and cool way to keep up with friends and make it thoroughly unenjoyable because you wanted to be an autocratic dickhead on a power trip. No ruling you ever make from now on will have an merit with me. Basically you have just "tainted the Shiva" using a league reference. Forever.Unclean.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:14 pm

Like I said in the long run, not a big deal, but the way you are handling this situation is. The collusion, the implied collusion with threats. The autocratic decisions. If a more important issue arises and you handle it the same way then it becomes a big deal.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Cat M on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:44 pm

not that this is a big deal for me personally but, if something is not in the leagues bylaws it shouldn't just be because of the commissioners say. It should be voted on like everything else. That being said when a managers draft time elapse  it moves to the next person, when the last pick elapse it should automatically be UDFA time and anyone should be available. This is should be the current way because we have not set any precedent before on this and we met all requirements needed for the managers to have enough time to draft whom they desire. That a manager wants a week to clean up any unpicked rights by the managers that either didn't pay attention or have busy lives as we enter adulthood it shouldn't be at the expense of another manager who is on top of what is happening in the league. Honestly we should be more mature about this whole problem in the first place and explain in facts so we can see both side of the arguments and make an educated decision on what should be done. That the commissioner has the last say on a potential issue should only be if an immediate decision needs to be made or if there is a tie. Otherwise the league as a whole should be the voice of reason.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Dan U on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:03 am

1.  Actually i know I allowed draft picks after the last slot had expired (not sure anyone did, but i definitely asked around for those with unused slots) in the first year, and that I asked people if they wanted to make them last year after the last slot had expired. (actually JASON of all people picked Eric Page over a week after the last slot last year, just looked it up). so the precedent is actually to allow people to finish up their draft late.

2.  Tom and I have executive decision'd rules in the past/changed them to be more appropriate at the time when it's something simple.  We usually go back and change them in the official rules after the season to more perfectly state the way in which we've been handling the situation.  The reason some things need snap decisions and aren't going to work in a vote format/are too late to be voted on.  asking less than 48 hours about a ruling isn't enough time to get a legit feel for how the league feels.

3. Again it's our league.  we are the ones i care are happy the most, because it was our idea, our baby.  We worked on making this thing a reality for 2 years.  discussed the rules with each other for days just to get a solid beginning point.  we're the ones that have to listen to debates, make the decisions/ruling, and keep up on the bookkeeping.  I want to make people happy, but seriously I am beyond fed up with this bullshit were anytime something doesn't go a players way it's our faults and certain individuals complaining because the league isn't 100% the way they want it the second they want it.  

4.  If the fact that from time to time tom and I will make a ruling that isn't perfectly detailed in the rules isn't something you are willing to deal with, let us know.  we can find a new person to own your team.
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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:13 am

I wouldn't have cared if someone bid on Eric Page, my draft slot had ended. Period. No one happened to pick him.

This isn't about not getting my way, in reality I don't care about the UDFA issue as much as the way you are handling it. No big deal most likely no one will draft those slots in a week and I can still have a shot at who I want. Or if they do, oh well they might have been gone if they had drafted on time anyway or they probably won't make my final roster or theirs. That isn't the point Dan. Cat clearly stated the point I am making. That is why everyone is angry.

Now if you are using your argument that you (and Tom?) do what's best for the league then why not jam through the paid league with prize for the champion LIKE EVERY OTHER LEAGUE OF THIS INVOLVEMENT DOES. Most of us have been advocating and supporting it for a couple years and it makes complete sense. But you've insisted a unanimous vote on this issue? When does an issue need a majority, unanimous, or arbitrary decision? When you decide it is so? Because it is your baby? If that's the case I definitely don't want a money league. Like Edgar said this is a non issue to him because the league isn't for money at the moment. But if it is are you taking the same stance?

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:14 am

And by everyone I mean me. And not angry as I am pissed at your logic which you so proudly stand behind all the time.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Cat M on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:42 am

if a manager has picks left and the UDFA period has begun that's his fault whether the week after or 3 seconds after the last timed section of the pick has expired. a player should be available immediately because there isn't precedent for it. Jason last year just took his pick in the middle of the UDFA period essentially. If a manager has a pick left they can take it whenever it just hurts them if a manager can bid on someone before they pick is all. Basically a pick can happen at anytime until a player has been bid on in UDFA season. If they haven't been bid on then by all means draft them and take claim of that player. I do not understand how this is a hard issue to settle? it was nice that dan asked everyone who had not finish picking last year but that is there own issue not the commissioners or the other managers.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Tom G on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:34 am

My thoughts:

I think we did have precedent about waiting a short time for UDFA's to begin. What we as commish's should have then done was write it into the rules before the draft even started, to reflect what we had been doing the first couple years. That's our bad, specifically an oversight on my part because its never been an issue, so I failed to address it. That being said, this is how it's going to be for this year, and we'll see what happens next year before the draft. It sounds like there's some support, but really only the two loudest and annoyingest league members have bothered to comment so who knows Razz

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:47 am

Jesus Christ you aren't even listening to what we are saying. Neither one of us are too concerned or broken up about the UDFA situation. Put to vote tomorrow I would probably sign on with Dan and support the 1 week rule in the best interest of the league. Fucking read the forum posts. You've told me that "we had meant to make this a money league" too but when was the autocratic decision to install that after year one which was a "beta" so you didn't feel comfortable charging people.

IT IS NOT IN THE RULES NOW. PERIOD. The two of you have enforced the rules because they are there to establish regulation and order and had to make tough calls using the rules as your defense. We have even had to wait and follow stupid rules for a year if not more until they were voted and changed. Why is this so different? Whoever the next person's issue is going to be and you and Dan will use your rule book to come down on them except now it doesn't have any merit, you have taken that away with this idiocracy.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Tom G on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:21 pm

I never EVER said this was going to be a money league. I said last season if we had unanimous support outside of Dan and I then sure, why not. We didnt have that. And it seems to me you didn't really read what I was saying. Because I was apologizing for dropping the ball and not adding it to the rules.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:35 pm

But you didn't address about how it should have been voted upon, and how this opens the door for the two of you having a 3 legged chair to sit on when making future rulings. And I've got to tell you from someone that's had to take a tough ruling based upon the rules (which I am not arguing I ended up agreeing and sourly taking responsibility because it was in the rules) I am going to throw even more of a shit fit than I am now because you guys were not consistent. This is the reason this is such a big deal. You are establishing a dangerous and easily avoidable precedent. This year UDFA signing happens early, next year we do the new way because WE VOTED ON IT. I already told you I would vote for it, that is 3. The point I am making is why the fuck did we have to wait 2 years for the waiver rule to go through? Just make the change immediately "for the best interest of the league" like you did or this. That ruling was way more prevalent to actual play.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:37 pm

Not specifically the waiver rule but I was using it is an example. What the hell makes this one so much more important? It isn't it is arbitrary, thus validating my argument.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:58 pm

Oh and for the record, "my bad" does not an apology make.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:00 pm

I can't believe you can't see why the only reason I am making a stink about this is because the two of you together with Wonder Twin powers have in the past so stringently adhered to your rules and now are throwing it all under the bus. It's complete bullshit and nothing gets me more steamed than double standards and puffery.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Dan U on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:23 pm

We've, as commissioners, made minor rules changes like this on the fly multiple times (especially in the first year, the way voting works now was actually one of the things tom and I changed on our own...the original method was odd if i recall...).  We just added them to the rules the next offseason usually because they were a big enough deal they came up and we thought of it while editing the rules.   We never took the time to actually add this because it never ended up being a big deal until now, so Tom and i never thought of it while editing the rules to incorporate new rules/working rules we've been using but never officially stated.  Just because it's not officially stated doesn't mean it hasn't been a rule we've been using for years.  We just didn't think to write it down.

If the fact that we don't bother to bring every single decision on rules to a vote really bothers you then please, tell us and we'll replace you.  because in all honesty there is likely to be a situation that comes up that's new and not perfectly worded in the rules that we'll need a quick decision on in the future and we'll again avoid voting and do what the commissioners think is best, which will lead to a new rule without a vote. Executive orders are a thing in many democracies for a reason. We need discretionary power to better run this league.  Sorry that something didn't go your way, but that's how it's going to go.

If it's a ruling that is a fairly significant, or even thought of well enough ahead of time, then sure voting makes sense and we try to do it.  But this was asked less than 48 hours before the rule would have taken effect.  No way we get sufficient votes in time.
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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:33 pm

Exactly, a few days does not make enough time for a vote which means the previous rule needs to be in place until a vote can be made. I am just not buying this discretionary garbage because I do not have the faith that you will make the right call when an issue of "actual importance" comes up. Basically your past actions haven't proven to me that you take reason above emotion. If you had been reasonable and explained like you did in the last post rather than come out aggressively and defend a bad position and moot point then this would have been smoother. 

And you keep focusing on how "it didn't go my way." Fucking 'A, Dan I don't give a shit about the UDFA 1 week, I care about what happened afterward and how you handled it. Like I said if someone wakes up and drafts a 6th/7th rounder that I wanted, darn it, big deal. They probably won't sign those players and I'll have a chance at them or they will be insignificant in the long run as 7th round talent or if I do get a shot at them they may not make my final roster either. STOP FOCUSING ON THAT! How many times do I have to say that if you had put it to a vote I would have supported it. 

THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is the way the rules are now is that we can bid on them. I understand your argument about your discretionary decisions, but your track record is now not on your side. I fear for the next controversial decision you will both have to make. I also love how you replace answering this argument with another argument because you cannot "win" this one and that conceding that you made a mistake is too much for your pride. Have you and Tom thus far done a pretty fair job maintaining the rules and changing the voting system to make the league interactive? Yes. But that is not what we are talking about. Convenient for you to bring it up to try and add goodwill to your side of the argument but you are taking away from that with this current ruling. It doesn't necessarily bother me that you don't want to bring every single decision to a vote, it BOTHERS me that you changed the rules AND DIDN'T TELL ANYONE until 2 DAYS before which any objective and reasonable person would have to allow things to happen as they are stated in the current rules. You can't arrest someone for following a law that is currently in writing and they are abiding by, but then say hey you're not abiding to the change of this law which we decided not to tell anyone about and did not make public. That guy gets off and that guy is held responsible for the law as it was when it was "officially" in effect. 

And I love how we conveniently breeze over the collusion and threats coming from your end.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Cat M on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:39 pm

how come every time dan has an issue with someone standing behind there thought process he automatically jumps to  we can replace you at anytime. like thats really a threat that anyone is going to worry about? and seriously you both are antagonizing each other so that this escalates.  if you really want to make both sides happy for this year then you should email everyone that has picks left and have 24 hours from there to start picks so they know what is happening  and then a  normal 8am to 8pm clock time for 1 day so they have the time to pick and after that UDFA should be up for grab. honestly though i think the grace period is weak shit excuse for those who didn't pay attention as well as people more regularly involved did. you are punishing managers on top of stuff and helping those that are lazy or have real life things to do such as kids or work.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:03 pm

Geez louise! It has gotten hostile in here.

Bullet points:

* Based on actual NFL, if the time clock expires on a team when they are on the board, they LOSE the pick all together. They in no way get it back or can select while others are now on the board. I believe that isn't fair for fantasy football dynasty fun leagues such as this. However, there should probably be the rule that when the last team's clock has expired in the 7th round, that was enough time to give everyone to make up their picks and the official draft should be closed. I do like the 1 week wait period; however, as this is meant to be friendly.

* Money league - I'm all for it and hope this happens next year. While the intentions were a fun league, it's always more interesting when money is on the line. And if somebody votes no to that I truly ask why? You don't have to commit any more time than you currently do the league and if you cant put down $20 on a league, that's sad. We all have jobs, we all drink, we all go out for dinners. Any general purchase you make in life will probably be more than $20. It just seems silly that some wouldn't agree to it.

* I don't agree with the dictatorship decisions and believe it should be voted on, but again it is Tom and Dan's league and it is for free. Some rules need updating or changes right away and aren't meant to change the dynamics of the league (which is I believe what they intended). Again, if Jawan Jamision or the other RB really impacts your team and winning the championship, you haven't build a good team.

That's my 2 cents...

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:21 pm

Andrew I agree about the players in the 7th round. As I have said several times in here that worrying too much about players taken this late is probably not going to make a difference. Like you, I even said I am not opposed to the 1 week. That isn't what I'm arguing. You and Cat clearly laid out my argument again for me so I don't have to rephrase. Even touched on the discretionary issue. Those are the issues in place here. This is a possible gateway for very bad rulings and debates in the future.

Why I am upset more so even if it is a small amount of collusion it was still there. So what it is insignificant and in the 7th round THIS year. But what about the future? I.E.

Dan:

"Hey Tom you know what'd be funny? If you picked Thompson with the pick I gave you and got both of Jason's handcuffs. That would teach him to annoy us about issues where we are actually wrong and don't want to admit it."

Tom:

"That's brilliant, I probably won't have the cap or roster to sign them but it sure will be fun to mess with him."

Now that is most likely not how it went down but the two of them have lost all credibility and trust with me with the constant threats of collusion or specific singling out; so, like I said, unless I see a lie detector test I am going to chalk it up to douchebaggery. It's actual ridiculous because I wasn't taking Thompson anyway. If I was super worried about Morris's handcuff I wouldn't have dropped Helu. I just got pissed off by the blatant "joke" that the two of them thought was going to be hilarious.

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Dan U on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:41 pm

And I don't buy the bullshit that just because it isn't specifically written in the rules it isn't a league rule.  You go with the precedent and that is a short time to finish the draft.  THAT IS THE WORKING RULE WE"VE PLAYED WITH FOR 2 YEARS!  That is as good as it having been written.  Trust me many of the rules were "changed" with this style early on.  It is how the league has worked with issues that come up from time to time that we didn't think to address when crafting the initial rules because we couldn't possibly have sat in a livingroom discussing rules and foreseen every single situation that would come up...sorry we're not omnipotent...new goal. But the league has always gone with the way we've run it, over the way it wa written in cases were tom and I realized we wrote it poorly.  Again, we'll continue to do this when necessary.  We'll bring things to a vote when necessary.  again If that isn't ok with you as a member of the league, sorry but you are free to forfeit your team, because that will never change.

Cat, know why I go to the you can be replaced statement? Because you can.  Plain and simple.  This is mine and tom's league and we deserve to have fun.  If we have to remove someone because they are more trouble than it is worth...yup seems ok to me.  If having you in this league is more of a headache than anything else, why should we have to deal with you?  there's no money on anything, it is always the same people bitching about everything, and it ruins our fun/causes annoyance that we truly don't need/want/deserve.  That's why.  We've so far reserved such penalty for inactive people, but in reality they only caused a headache because of...you guessed it the same people who complain about everything (although this complaining was deserved in the case of everyone that's been removed).
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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Jason B on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:49 pm

Notice no denial of said conversation between him and Tom....

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Re: UDFA Availability

Post  Dan U on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:52 pm

I'm sorry your conspiracy theory is so over discussed already...I figure it's like this:  Some people are big enough morons to believe Bigfoot exists, and no matter how much proof you show that they are wrong, they will wake up the next day thinking they are so much smarter than you because they'll find Bigfoot...about as legit.
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Re: UDFA Availability

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